Greetings to all,
We have had conversations on When I am Dead and Home Burial 2 weeks ago. It was an emotionally charged conversations and I wished we could have continued it until the clock struck 12 ....wishful thinking... I feel that there are still many voices unheard on this topic. So, please throw in those silent conversations here and let us share your ride to the land of Discovery!!!
Hi Mdm =)
ReplyDeleteI noticed that most of us have our own personal experiences regarding this matter. So first of all, I would like to apologize if anyone felt uneasy about my several comments/opinions regarding the grief part.
Here, I would like to stress again that as a man, representing fellow men, WE DO GRIEF. But yes, we can never share it with women around us. I don’t know if this has anything to do with our infamous ego or hormones, but I really think that it’s the nature of men itself.
Personally, I do grief and I want people to know that I also grief even though I can still laugh and smile at a funeral. It’s easier to grief with fellow men, because we’d sit down and talk and laugh and shout during a funeral for hours about anything that comes to mind. Of course, we will never speak about the death. Maybe you guys notice this, maybe you don’t.
But from my experience, this is how my family and I grief. We just cannot bear to cry in front of other people [sorry, no hard feelings =(]. Maybe it’s because of my parents’ upbringing, or my surroundings, or my single status, or any other external factors. Who knows…? But yeah, I do cry alone sometimes. [This is not an easy confession!!!]
!Hello, Mdm Juridah and my dear coursemates...
ReplyDeleteBoth these poems actually speak from a different voice although their theme is the same-death. For When I Am Dead, it brings out the issue that the 'dead' will not and does not want those who he/she left behind to grief for him/her. This is because he/she may not remember or know who they are or who they have been. In my HUMBLE and PERSONAL opinion, since death might be a sensitive issue to some, so I shall put it in a very personal manner of what I think about death. Anyway, in my humble opinion, I, too wouldn't want to be grieved upon my passing. Like I said that day in class, when I die, I want a rock band (haha). ok.. rock band might be exaggerating la.. but you get the picture. I wouldn't want people crying for me (if there is la) since I don't even like seeing people crying now in front of me over worldly issues. I tend to be awkward and really don’t know what to do. I mean, crying itself is heart wrenching for me. I do cry, a lot, especially back in the days when I am as tall as the rubbish bins you see by the streets. My mom used to say I am so good at shedding crocodile tears that I can just become an actress when I grow up. Jeez.. What am I doing here laaa? I should be in Hong Kong acting with Tony Leung and Jackie Chan! Ok.. back to reality, Crying. Crying for most people will be the action of grief which is the key for the second poem, Home Burial. Crying and thinking about a loved one who is gone forever is of course, indeed a very emotional, tragic.. no words on earth can describe the feeling of emptiness and knowing that from then on, everything is just a memory. Believe me, I have a crazy mind who tend to make up situations in 20 years time when my parents have left me, and yes.. I do shed my tear too at just even the thought of it, so I know I will be crazy if the reality of them leaving comes. But, we know death is a natural thing. WE can’t fight it so we have to deal with it. But is going on and on and on and on about the dead until you forgot to live is a good way to grief?
WE do hear stories; whether fiction or non fiction about how people handle grief. For fiction, I guess the most popular will be the famous Shakespeare play ROMEO AND JULIET, whereby in the first place, in my humble opinion, Romeo killed himself upon knowing Juliet had died because of grief and that he does not want Juliet to be ‘alone’. That I think is an action of grief. But how many went into that extreme to show grief? Depression, yes. There might be cases like that where the sadness is so overwhelming that they have to seek professional guidance but other than that? So, I think to grief for someone, is not to constantly lament over that person but just keep them in memory, IN LOVING MEMORY. After all, no one will remember them anymore once YOU PASSED ON too. I guess that is why in every culture, here is a special day where one needs to visit those who have passed away. For Muslims (correct me if I am wrong) is during Raya where you offer prayers, for Chinese is during Qing Ming while the Indians will select one special day for each person who had left the world for prayers.
hi everyone...
ReplyDeleteafter reading both comments above, abviously we can see that both male and females grief..I agree with that as well. But male and female definitely will not grief in the same way.Most male grief in their own way (as khudri mentions above)...which can be classified as "Grieving in a masculine way"..such as doing some activities like fishing,or get drunk or even crying alone in the dark(hehehe).
Its very hard for a woman like me to accept that we think,feel,behave,react,expressing feeling and opinion in a very different way from male do (in most cases), so its with griefing.
The reason why the man doesn't want to show their feeling (especially grieving) is, most of them are saddled with certain stereotypes where the real man are suppose to be in control,though and rational.So, it is impossible fo them to grief the same way the woman does.
When we refuse to accept or understand the difference, it can result in heart feeling (especially for female). As our partner did not shows their actual thought and feeling, we'll keep on thinking that he is not sensitive and ego.
Whatever it is, i believe that grief must be expressed and released. To the men out there..just share the thoughts and feelings with your partner..you'll feel good (i guess so)..
Regards
Samsiah Abdullah
GS25353
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Mdm Ju and friends..
ReplyDeleteI accidentally deleted my earlier comment and now i have to come out with another one.. :C (grieving mode)
Perhaps I am not ready to talk about my passing. As a human being, I know that I am never far from committing sins. As a muslim, I believe that asking for forgiveness from human being is always more difficult than asking for it from God because God the All Mighty is always the most forgiving.
In my family, the men are always famous with grieving over the lost of the loved ones more than the female.
Personally, anger has always been the way I express my sadness and grief. It's like my alter-ego. Perhaps it's because of the way I was brought up.
I would want people to grieve over my passing. i guess it is better that people are sad over your passing rather than them talking about all my sins and all the bad things that I have done to them when I was still alive. But if they still remember me as how bad I was when I as still alive, then it only implies how bad I was as a human being.
I would like to share a link of the late Yasmin Ahmad's video. This is another view of how people grieve and remember the departure of their loved ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw0s4C0g5SM&feature=search
Eilina
GS25177
Hello, Mdm Juridah and my dear classmate..
ReplyDeleterealy death is very sensetive topic and everyone of us have his own way with dealing with it.Like in WHEN I AM DEAD,The 'dead' dont want any one to grief for him, but for me i realy wish when i die, i wake up again in my funeral and see those who loves me and cry and grief for me i think i will have different emotions, i will be happy to see how much they love me and in the sametime sad because those who loves me are hurt and in a bad situation ):
I agree with Kud that men also grief even if they didn't show their feeling, maybe becuse their nature and that they want to show that they are strong, or maybe they have a different way of griefing that we don't know (:
In HOME BURIAL, when the wife blame her husband for not sharing with her the grief, I think that one of the couples must be strong and that is the man,For me it is not fair that the two couples live the in same sadness and crying and griefing all the time,the man must not show his feeling like the women he must be supportive and try to help his wife to accept their situation and live a new life and by doing that we can't say that they are selfish and not sharing, for me they are helping us to overcome our gloominess and depression.
Regards
Ahlam Alzahrani
GS23730
Hi and Good Day.
ReplyDeleteWell.., those are sad and disturbing poems. As I should say, it is not a poem I wish to read and say wonderful things. This is about death and things that many of us don’t want to remember or even think about it as it only brings sorrow to the beloved ones. As a person...when I am dead..I always don’t want my loved ones to grief or cry. I would rather have them to take things as it goes and not stop there or cry over spilled milk. However, crying out and pouring out our feelings is better than storing them in our heavy heart and mind. It’s certainly unhealthy right? It is also best to talk about it to your close friends or relative. BUT... as a parent, grieving over child’s death is something you cannot forget immediately...but time has the answer for it. As everyone knows that, losing your loved ones is always an agony; there are no words that can describe the feelings. Nevertheless, we have to remember that, we have other loved ones who are still with us and we have to live and take care of them. Although, there are others who can still fill the gaps...but that one, as I said earlier, time has to answer it. I do agree with Kud that, we all grief, but in different ways or in our own ways and at different time. However, grieving over something that cannot be undone...is actually worthless. Men and women do grief but probably women tend to show more emotion and commotion compared to men. But it is wrong to say that, men do not grief totally.
SHAMMINE
GS24384
When I am Dead means a lot to me, i think it's the way Christina words things. To me personally the poem was beautifully captivating! "I shall not hear the nightingale sing on as if in pain" that part means a lot to me as well, as if to leave the pain that you posses and just be able to let go and forget..."Happily may remember, and haply may forget" again, being able to forget pain, but also saying this to her "dearest" is a display of love, in my humble opinion, as if she doesn't want this person to suffer for her death, but remember her the way she was, and in a sense forget that there was ever any pain there at all...well those are my feelings towards this poem!
ReplyDeleteHome Burial is another really heart touching poem for me and has reveled a lot of thing about personal problem. It basically focuses what may happen when there is cold communication between the couples after their son death. We should always give due consideration to communication otherwise it may ruin our life as well as in poem.....
Regards,
Yew
GS 25354
Hello everyone!
ReplyDelete"Home Burial" and "When I am dead" are written from different points of view; the first is about a couple who have lost their child and the second about someone who is going to die and how she wants people to take it.
I agree that both men and women grieve in their own ways. It does not mean that one has to show the whole worll that he or she is grieving, some people grieve silently especially men. I thin they feel that is a sign of weakness to show grief; in fact speaking for myself I would not mind if my husband were to show gief once in a while but I wouldn't want to see him grieving too much because then I would not be able to depend on him. I think most women would want their men to be strong and to be their strength in times of tragedy. If the men were to show extreme grief and fall apart, then who would hold the family together? One partner has to be stronger than the other in tragic times, if both were to be over emotional the thing would be more difficult. Most of us women expect the man to be the stronger partner. However, in "Home Burial" the wife does not see it this way, she feels that her husband is unaffected by the death of their child.
In "When I am dead. my dearest", Christina Rossetti does not want anyone to mourn over her death. When we love someone, how can we not feel unhappy when they leave us? How can we forget, how can we fill the gaps without any feelings? Of course, it a question of time, time heals as they say but can we ever forget what our loved one meant to us?
Santha
GS 26611
Good day!
ReplyDeleteI kind of like both the poems. It’s interesting. Though death is something that we don’t talk about openly, but I think we need to think and look in it. When I read a newspaper, I automatically will open the obituary section first before reading anything else. Why do I do this?...simply to see who is dead...and just in case if there is anyone I know.... and also to look for some interesting names... .... If I’m lucky, I wish to write my own obituary...I shall design it in my very own way and words...(kind of psycho right...but actually it’s just something that I would like to leave behind for people to know about me).
Talking about grieving...we can’t deny that every human is made and born with such senses.....what matters is just the way it reflects on us. Men are often seen as the strength for a woman (most of the time...so called as a place to hang on)...as grieving makes you sad, lack of concentration, makes you weak with your feelings and may also lead you to depression...this is what makes man not to grief openly as they are meant to be the strength for the ladies. Ladies a naturally soft hearted...grieving naturally comes in them. If both the man and woman to grief badly in a situation...things might get out of control. This is when we need either party to be strong and play the role of a motivator.
On the other hand, it is not wrong (wrong is not really the appropriate word....may I shall say that on the other hand, it is OK) to express your grief. By letting it out, you may feel better. Yet the issue of grieving is subjective as it is in an individual’s character, attitude, personality and upbringing.
Like in the case of Kud, he says that he do grief it’s just that he can’t bear to cry in front of the others, but sometimes he do cry when he is alone...(congrats Kud on the confession)....wherelse in contrast to Eilina, she has said that the men are always famous with grieving over the lost of the loved ones more than the female (in her family) and for herself, she expresses her sadness and grief through anger. Two contrast confession, one by a male and another by a female.
Harbans Kaur Harpal Singh
GS24356
Good evening Puan Juridah,
ReplyDeleteWhen I am dead is about a person who is going to die and do not want anyone to grieve or mourn excessively for her. She has come to a certain age where she has all that she can ask for and when she dies she does not want anyone to grieve execessively for her . In Home Burial it is the death of a child and the wife could not understand why her husband is so cold and can dig the grave without showing any emotion. Probably I think they had some marital problems prior to the death of the child and I think that she is using it as an excuse to run and cry into another man's arms.As a mother myself I understand that when a mother loses a child she feels as if she is losing her world. That is why we always hear of a mothers sacrificing her life for her child.May be she can grieve but I feel that she should understand that the way her husband grieve is different. I feel that women cry because crying and talking ease the pain of the loss but as for men they just keep to themselves which I think is not so
good because it will be more difficult to cope with the pain and the healing process will take a longer time.
Eventually everything that lives dies and even the richest man cannot bring his money along. Well in Buddhism we can only bring our good and bad karma along when we die. That is why we must help others and give ,for when we give, we get so much more.
Yap Hwei Ping
GS25575
Hi everyone!!... Well i have read everyone's comment. i find it interesting that each and everyone of us have their own thought on death!.. and we do come out with crazy ideas how we deal with death and how we wanted to be remembered. Like Suet Yet said she wanted to be remembered by having a rock band perform on her funeral... haha... and Harbans actually wanted to design her own obituary!
ReplyDeleteSo everyone don't want their loved one to be sheding tears when they die...
Well as for me, i never though of crazy ideas for my funeral.. haha.. never crossed my mind! and when Suet Yet actually told in class she wanted a rock band... i was going ... Yeah why not!! Never thought of it before.. Why not a change!... Death should be a sad occasion... why?? because the person has passed on... We always say that, 'Owh God Loves her/ him' so why not be happy for that person?? That God actually loves that person more than we do!!.
We should not cry!! the person is going to led a new life in after life!! so why cry?? like Christina said in her poem, she don't want her lover to be sad when she dies! As for me, when i was small, i do think of death... ( not like how you guys think, with creative and crazy ideas though)I think like how elina said, that people do remember our deeds in the world and will talk 'bout it later. So when i was a little girl. I will always think that when i die, will people remember me?? or will people cry for me?? i think as such because i wanted to know whether i'm a good or bad person in this world. i think that i can only know it when i die.. haha..This is because when i was a little girl, i used to always go to funeral and i come to accept the fact that one day, i will die. Weeks after the funeral, i will hear different voices and opinion on that dead person, some a good and some are bad. This triggers my imaginations. =)As i grow, i do not think as such but instead, i keep on thinking how will i die?? hehe... i have stooped think about death until we actually discuss on death last two weeks!!
As for emotions, i do admit that some of us could not accept the fact of death.. thus some don't want even to talk about it, well, like in the poem Home burial, the man seem to be calm and composed, when actually he is compressing his emotion inside for his wife. Thus, i may say that each of us has our own speciall way of showing our emotion, Robert Frost did it by composing a poem for his son who died. Thus, lets just don't stereotype of man and woman's emotion because we show our emotion differently regardless whether we are man or woman. Some woman like Elina and me, we don't show emotion openly to tell the whole wide world that we are grieving!!. As i'm more secretive person, although i might be grieving inside, i might be laughing and smiling outside and no one could actually guess that i'm actually sad and grieving!!. This goes vice versa for others.
ALICIA PHILIP
GS26579
Hi, Mdm Juridah and my dear course mates,
ReplyDeleteActually these two poems have different viewpoints although their theme is the same and is death.
When I am dead, my dearest is referred to a person who is going to die and do not want anyone to suffer or mourn extremely over her death. But she wants to remember her the way she was.
'Everything that has a beginning has an ending. Make your peace with that and all will be well'. Buddist saying
We all know that death is a natural phenomenon. We have to deal with it and cannot fight it.
Personally, when I am dead I don’t want my loved ones to grief or cry very much. I would rather them to cope things as it goes and do not stop there or cry. I’d like to live in their hearts, share in their happiness and in their dreams. I’d not like to suffer my loves upon my passing, but I’d like to remember me for my goodnesses. In my point of view, it doesn’t matter how we die, it’s important how we live and what we give to the others, not what we gain.
Indian Prayer
When I am dead
Cry for me a little
Think of me sometimes
But not too much.
Think of me now and again
As I was in life
At some moments it's pleasant to recall
But not for long.
Leave me in peace
And I shall leave you in peace
And while you live
Let your thoughts be with the living
Home Burial, is about a couple who have lost their child and the wife could not understand why her husband doesn’t show any emotion. I do agree with Kud and Shaminine that, we all grief, but in different manners and at different time. Women tend to show more emotion than men. It doesn’t mean men do not grief at all, but they don't show their feelings, perhaps because of their nature and their ego.
By crying and talking the women decrease their pain of the loss but men don’t show their feelings which I think is not so good because it will lead to heart attack or other diseases.
In my humble opinion, in Home Burial, if the husband showed his emotion to her wife, she could grief better. If men show their emotion a little, it eases for women to overcome their gloominess and depression, although it’s necessary that men to be the stronger partner.
Best Regards
Vahideh
GS26717
Helloww...
ReplyDeleteIt's kindda hollow to talk about death...
Well ya, we can all go on and on about death being the start of a new begining and not the end of something...but when we come to the point of 'death', any death...we do have a pang of pain. Continuing, depending on how important the deceased was. Quoting (well, what i remember) from a movie i watched lately "the fountain" - many of us leave the the world as we came to it, kicking and screaming - ; we were talking about how we'd like to die...this line suited.
It's only natural, the brain knows but when it come to near and dear, it is difficult. I guess, death is not something we can emphatise...definately uncontrollable and eminently present.
-Archanaa-
hello and good morning everyone...
ReplyDeletelet's grief together here!!!Well, frankly speaking, i have to agree with kud here..Actually, men do grief but they didn't show it. They have their own way to grief such as always remembering the love one who died and they like to do it ALONE.!! Not emotionally express to everybody. Actually, I also grief like men..haha!! May be because I always mix around with the boys and have a lot of male friends. So, some part of me actually think like a man and understand men's soul. :) The way I grief if someone that I love is dead is crying alone and not during the funeral. The tears just wont burst out in front of other people and if the tears burst out, I wipe it out ASAP.
The poem When I'm Dead is very interesting for me because the persona doesn't want her beloved to grief when she's dead. This doesn't mean that she doesn't want her dearest to be sad at all. She doesn't want her dearest to emotionally grief for her. In my opinion, the persona really loves her dearest and she doesnt want him to cry and mourn. Losing someone that we love is pain enough and that is why some of us don't want to talk about death. Even when thinking about death can make us feel scared enough. For a muslim, death is very scary because we have a lot of sins and we are afraid of "His" judgment later on. Like Madam said, death can come in a second and thinking about this is really really scary.
In the poem Home Burial, this is how the women usually grief. For women, it is normal to grief and mourn expressively if their beloved is dead. I do understand what is the persona's feeling when she lost her child. That is what happened when a mother lose a child.I do agree with Vahideh when she said men should show a little bit of their emotion when it comes to a husband and wife relationship.(Now,it is the feminine side of me talking.) Losing a child is very painful and a wife just need the present of her empathy husband to console and comfort her even though he doesn't emotionally expressed his feelings.
Like the persona in When I'm Dead, I will also feel uncertain whether i will remember my beloved or not. And I also dont know whether I would want my beloved to grief and mourn or not.. UNCERTAINTY... Life is full of uncertainties...
Hi Pn Ju,
ReplyDeleteBoth poems "When I am Dead" and "Home Burial" talk about the issue of death. We have had really interesting ideas when talking about death because it is a taboo for many people. People love living in denial =) I'm sure different people have different ways when dealing with grief and i believe it's even more difficult for a married couple. In 'Home Burial', the death of their child symbolizes the end of their marriage as well, for they both failed to communicate and channel their grief properly. Women wants their husbands to listen to their words and feelings and men on the oher hand have to (sometimes forced to) stay strong to hold their family together. When their intentions are being misunderstood, communication breakdown will happen.
As for 'When I am Dead', it's like teling how a person should carry on with life after her passing. No doubt that her body will be one with the universe but what remains is the memories that the people who are still alive have. And that's how the deceased are still 'alive' - in spirit.
Chai Hui Ling
GS26896
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteVery good afternoon madam Juridah and friends:
ReplyDeleteI interested so much when I read all your comments, but I want to ask you a question: did you experience the death of someone you love while you are oversea??
It is really so hard and depressing to be in such a situation. I tried it over ten times, from time to time I got a call from my family or my family –in-law, telling me that we want to tell you something but please be patient and believe that this is life, all of are going to die, no one will be immortal and there after they throw the death news and they end the call. So what is next? I am alone and no one can understand how much I love that person. My husband, my husband doesn’t want to show his grieve, he prefers to patient me as much as he can, saying that life goes on, we are Muslims, and we are supposed to accept the fact that people after they die they want people to ask for forgiveness not to cry, crying brings depression and broken heart. I know for sure that no one can feel this unless you experience it( hope happy life for all of you, but may you didn’t get my message).
But in terms of male grieving, I can say that it depends on his age and how much he loves that person. Because I saw this with my father, just six months ago his best friend passed away. I knew the news before I was back to Libya, but when I saw my father, I got a shock from his body weight and his mood, I asked him but he said nothing just because you didn’t see me long time, but when I asked my mother she said he couldn’t forget your uncle(his friend), she said that as you know he was his brothers, his father, his all family, they spent their childhood together ,all of their study years even their work, they were together, he is always saying “all of my peers and friends went and I am packing my luggage” which means they passed away and I am waiting my turn.
So in, home burial, I can see both points o f view. When you've lost someone you love, especially a child, you feel as though the world just needs to stop for awhile and grieve. It feels so strange that this one you love so dearly is gone, that your whole world is changed, yet the world around you continues on as if nothing is different at all. Yet there are also those who understand that life must go on - that all is changed, yet unchanged at the same time. There are still fences to mend, conversations to have, loves to enjoy, only tainted by the loss of one so precious. And the pain she felt in his digging the little one's grave - how very gripping.
His wife doesn't understand how he could bury his own SON. But who else was there to do it. He didn't have a choice to move on, there was work to do and lives to provide for. People grieve in different ways as all of mention, and her non-understanding of his grief, simply because it is different from hers, is wrong. So she is going to leave, AGAIN, or so it seems. In the end you are left guessing where their relationship is headed.
And also .it shows us how a dead child creates the problem between the living persons......these two persons are not someone else but they are his real parents...this poem shows a big greif,mother can't accept it but father accepts the reality.......
The death of a close one, and how lack of communication and understanding can terribly
hurt a relationship. Everyone is entitled to express their emotions they want, but the wife does not like the fact that the husband won't express himself. Very deep thinking by Frost, especially since this is his own life
expreience.
HAPPY LIFE WITH ALL YOUR BELOVERS
AND LIVE LOVE LIFE
REGARDS
KALTHOUM (GS24711)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreetings to Mdm Juridah and friends
ReplyDeleteWell by looking at these two different poems written by different poets we can come across a lot of commonalities. Death, grief, sadness, loss and loneliness are just a few concepts that we can find out in them. The concept of “Death” itself is mysterious enough that people look at in from different points of view. To some ideologies it is the end of everything and to some; it is just the beginning of a new life. How we look at death can definitely pave the way for what we want in this world and understand ourselves and the people around us. If death is the end of everything then we should do our best to get as much as and at any price whatever we want in this world without caring about others and social rules. But on the contrary f it if just the beginning of a change, so we need to prepare us for this big change and we all know how….
I would like to emphasize on the difference between men and women in different situations especially when they intend to express their feelings. Since not all men and women are the same around the globe, we cannot come to on single description about them. But what is quite clear is that there are differences and we cannot reject them. If we just try to accept that the differences exist, most of the mutual misunderstanding will be justified. This is how we are created and is not changeable, it is our duty to try and investigate ourselves more and more.
Regards
Mohammad Reza
(GS 25775)
Greetings to Mdm Juridah and friends
ReplyDeleteRead the following story to see how we can think about one single situation so differently and come to different conclusions. It is worth reading.
A young lady was waiting for her flight in an airport. As she would need to wait many hours, she decided to buy a book to spend her time. She also bought a packet of cookies. She sat down in an armchair, in the VIP room of the airport, to rest and read in peace.
Beside the armchair where the packet of cookies lay, a man sat down in the next seat opened his magazine and started reading. When she took out the first cookie, the man took one also. She felt irritated but said nothing. She just thought: “What a nerve! If I was in the mood I would punch him for daring!”
Foe each cookie she took, the man took one too. This was infuriating her but she didn’t want to cause a scene.
When only one cookie remained, she thought: “ah… What this abusive man do now?” Then, the man, taking the last cookie, divided it into half, giving her one half.
Ah! That was too much! She was much too angry now! In a huff, she took her book, her things and stormed to the boarding place.
When she sat down in her seat, inside the plane, she looked into her purse to take her sunglasses, and to her surprise, her packet of cookies was there, untouched, unopened!
She felt so ashamed!! She realized that she was wrong…. She had forgotten that her cookies were kept in her purse.
The man had divided his cookies with her, without feeling angered or bitter.
…. While she had been very angry, thinking the she was dividing her cookies with him. And now there was no chance to explain herself…nor to apologize.
The moral of the story…
There are four things that we cannot recover:
1. The stone……after the throw!
2. The word ……after it’s said!
3. The occasion……after the loss!
4. The time……after it’s gone!
You see how nice we men are…:)
Regards
Mohammad Reza
(GS 25775)
Dear Puan Ju and all.
ReplyDeleteKuds cries alone & lonely while Reza shows how gentlemen men can be - but those are individual cases, especially men being gentlemen. Interesting fact... Anyway, I agree that most men cry alone, like Kuds. This is due to my own experiences. The first one, my cousin who lost his wife 3 years ago(breast cancer) still visits her grave everyday without fail and wears black attire (head to toe). Second case, my father-in-law who has just lost my mom-in-law last February and showing a similar trait - crying alone but not wearing black attire lah.. Before mak was to be covered with the white cloth, abah was called to kiss her but he refused (God knows his reasons - maybe he didn't want to see her in that condition) and till now he never leaves the house (even to visit his children) but to the mosque or the grave. He recites yassin after every asar in her grave and he hires a gardener to look after her plants (there are 4-5 pots of plants only! but still...)as my father-in-law is lousy in this area. He stays alone in the house now but refuse to move in with any of the kids. I think he still keeps her clothes intact in the wardrobe.
But I feel sad for abah as I know how much he loved mak. She was on wheel chair for 8 years and he cared for her himself - no complain, no maid...
I hope my other half will do the same to me! How romantic...
On death perspective, I feel that we have different ways of showing our grievance. No harm in mourning but be logical too. Think of all the people that are still alive and need your attention and affection (like children, friends, love ones, etc). As a Muslim, I need to remember that Allah give us life and He will take it back. Nothing is permanent in this world and we have to learn to accept that our death has been arranged by Him, only He knows when and so we need to be prepared...
Salam Puan Ju, Hello everyone!!
ReplyDeleteDEATH! I always told myself that I was open to the possibility of an afterlife and I believed it. In fact, I was banking off the idea of it. Being open to the idea practically made me believe that something was going to happen after I died. Reincarnation, going to heaven or hell, becoming a ghost… something was going to happen to me.Some people describe death as an everlasting darkness. My problem is that I’m not even sure that it is that.Another fear of mine is that, what will anything after I’m gone mean?
So, in "After I am Dead" - to me the poem is about how one does not care how things turn out after life is over. Whats important is that we live our lives so we can be remembered. When the poet says-" If thy wilt remember , if thy wilt forget" she is referring to the choice people have when they are alive to do something to be remembered for or be someone who people would rather forget. It’s a comforting thought to be one with nature after death. How does it matter if you put flowers on the grave or grow a tree? After life there is nothing but peace. That’s how I interpret this poem.
As for "Home Burial" - I find this poem to be very interesting yet very depressing. It can have so many views interpreted. Such as the role of a man and a woman. The death of a close one, and how lack of communication and understanding can terribly hurt a relationship. Everyone is entitled to express their emotions they want, but the wife does not like the fact that the husband won't express himself. Very deep thinking by Frost, especially since this is his own life experience. (Cynthia: correct me if I'm wrong)
Dear Mdm Juridah and my classmates,
ReplyDeleteAs we know, both of these poems- “When I am Dead, My Dearest” and “Home Burial”- are mostly based on the subject of grief and death. Talking about death is not an easy work, but it is a part of our life. No one escapes its clutches and no one can escape the harsh reality of dealing with the loss of some one dear. In “When I am Dead, My Dearest”, Christina states that she does not like her loved ones cry or grieve for her after her death, and just remember her through their hearts. But I’m not agree with her, because by crying our loved ones can relieve themselves and maybe it helps them to tolerate this huge grief better.
The poem “Home Burial” describes two tragedies: first, the death of a young child, and second, the death of a marriage. Although the death of the child is the catalyst of the couple’s problems, the larger conflict that destroys the marriage is the couple’s inability to communicate with one another. Both characters feel grief at the loss of the child, but neither is able to understand the way that their partner chooses to express their sorrow.
In my opinion, men and women have different styles in showing their feelings. Women are more expressive about their loss or their grief, more emotional about it, and more likely to look for support from others. Since society expects men to be strong and unemotional, they most often grieve in more solitary and cognitive ways. While women may cry and dwell on their memories of a child, men may express their grief by burying themselves in their works. But we should keep in mind that because grieving is such an individual experience, the opposite may also be true.
Best regards,
Saeideh.
GS25784
Good evening Madam Juridah and friends
ReplyDeletei want to comment on friend Mohammad. who said that men are not nice or not worthwile respecting. Men are our father,brother,husband and sons.and the world without male can't be stand. the problem is that when (female) grieve males don't care about that and they look to that from the femals' weaknesses( we feel that, i don't know if it true).but let's take it from islam history ourprophet was male and he grieve alot in the death of his wife and his sons which leadede him to call it as the grief year.Also his friends(as'sahaba), grieve too much in his death. they bath and bury him with tears. they couldn't stop crying, which means that males are human. they grieve as well as enjoy. So if you donn't cry nor grieve at all, that means your loose a part of humanity in your personality.
I APOLOGISE IF I HURT ANY MALE.
ALL THA BEST
Kalthoum.R.M.Said
GS24711
Hi Madam Juridah and my dear colleagues…
ReplyDeleteSometimes, I have such a hard time to remember what people look like when they are not with me like right now and I am so scared that I will forget them such a second. An individual may consider his own death to be the final phenomenon of nature. Although for few of us death is not a stopping point but it is a starting point for a new life. I belief that independency will take place after life.
Both poems become a heart-rending depiction of their innermost thoughts. I really enjoyed with these poems. I feel as I should be more afraid of life than death.
When we died all of our senses will stop. But here it is quite interesting to see people who planned to create her obituary site like Harbans. Although you are going to die you still can create ahh? Creative thinker!
I think I were never grief before and I hope that just be happy than grieve over someone’s.
Thank you.
Hazreen Binti Haji Abdul Hamid
GS24475
Good day Mrs Juridah & my fellow educators,
ReplyDeleteAmazing comments…most of my fellow educators are quite gloomy with both the poems. Harbans Kaur says interesting (yah..), Mohammad shows the gentleness of men (hmm), Kudz crying alone (confession > power bro)….Tam rock band…I want Beatles music : ) …Alicia > glad that you have start thinking of what you want…
I always wanted a white coffin…Beatles music…good feast for THAT day ONLY…
Share about me to inspire the others…
I feel both poems are truly haunting on LoVe & DeaTH.
“When I am Dead” : My perception of death was in wonderful existence that I compare with twilight. Nowadays, people face such an infinite number of wonderful things in life…where they have no time to arrange their minds. It only comes to consider to them if any accidents happens, to mere events of the day.
My mom use to say ‘never be afraid of the dead but you should be with the living…’
It makes me feel as if I should be more afraid of my live than death….and it really
spoke to me through this poem: Leave the pain that I have pose, just be strong to let it go and forget the pain; but remember the mode of experience to strengthen my journey of life…(move on Kalpana …move forward…)
What I want and need are the love and affection of all that I will try to get from this life before I shut my eyes forever…
“Home Burial”: Woo :/ reminds me much of what my family & me went through 10++ years ago…(appa). Overwhelming grief, alienation from those to whom we are closest is universal experiences. I would say that an individual feelings and communication both are inadequate to understand. In such situations, it is merely impossible to establish a predictable conversation.
The males in my family went through showing strength during their grieving process. They went on by not forgetting but by keeping the memory…
The females in my family went through showing failing during their grieving process.
They did go on not by keeping memories but by grieving on and off…(even till now)
All the way through I was lost (not now…but 10 years ago) even though surrounded with all my loved ones…is just not the same!
All was dramatic, emotional and tense. The conflict lies between two characters. Yes, husband has his ways to mourn and wife wants all the attention to herself.
The house was a prison with the window to view the world. The husband was trying to work out with the problems and would want the house to become a home again…
Regards
Kalpana Subramaniam
GS26643
Hi everyone
ReplyDeleteI got surprised when I read kalthoum's comment on my post.Dear kalthoum where on my post I mentioned that "men are not nice or not worthy of respecting"!!I think you did not fully read my comments. Read them again and you will see how strongly I believe men are respecful.
regards
Mohammad Reza
(GS 25775)
Dear Pn. Ju and friends,
ReplyDeleteThis poem appears to suggest that the writer wishes her loved ones to get on with their lives after her death. Christina Georgina Rossetti is trying to tell her loved ones to not waste their time by putting any flowers on her casket or giving her anything when she is dead. She says that she cannot hear, feel, or see anything when she is dead. All she wants from her loved ones is to only have happy thoughts of her and not to think anything bad of her when she is gone.
i think the writer trying to break the normal tradition of death and say that a death should be celebrated not morned.... This also shows that her believes are againts the norm of a typical women.
On the other hand, the home burial is about the couple who has lost their first baby.A man and a woman are behaviouring so indifferently at this hour when they needed the support of each other the most.
This emphasizes the idea of how different a man and woman can be. The man character in the poem is so egoistic that he is not able to offer any support to the mourning wife. She wants him to remember the death of the child but he has decided to not talk about it as it only hurts. They think differently although they both love the child.
The husband has realized the bitter reality of death of his first baby but woman has got psychologically intense at the lost of his son.She is getting so emotional that love of her husband could not console her.A man has performed the most difficult task of digging the grave of his child but woman thinks that he has been so unemotional while digging the grave of his only child.
I think woman is getting overly emotional and is not ready to accept the bitter reality of the death of his son.
Greetings to all,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading both poems I found out, although their subjects are completely different but they have a same theme pertains to “Death and grief”. In fact we can assume that “reacting toward someone’s death” is the main point of these poems. Everyone has a different view from the death and this matter influences their reaction toward it. But no matter how different your vision is, when death combines with emotion and feelings, the way of reaction will be changed. In “Home Burial” the father and mother had different reactions toward their child’s death. The mother suffered more than the father. In fact, the woman felt that her husband was so indifferent to their child’s death. If I want to judge this poem, I could say that criticizing this poem is difficult because we are unaware of the inner’s man feelings. Perhaps he was cold and indifferent to his child’s death, because I have seen many men in my life that they were completely indifferent to their children death. However, if we look from another point, maybe this man did not want to show his grief and sadness to his wife. Because he wanted to prove that a real man never cries and never shows his grief to others especially to women.
In “When I am dead” the lady wanted to prevent her lover from reacting with grief and mourning toward her death. But the only thing she wants from her lover is never ceases to remember her and always keeps her in his heart.
Hi Mdm Ju and friends..
ReplyDeleteThese two poems,When I am dead and Home Burial,It significantly talks about death.In Home Burial, this poem is about death, particularly the death of a child. It is not, as many have said, about who has accepted the death and who has not; that implies death is something to be decided upon, which is moot. In this poem,the woman feels as if the man has not emotionally grieved the loss and the man feels as if the woman has yet to move on from grief.Others, the poem is about the struggle of a couple who, loves one another, the child they lost, and their struggle to deal with the grief of that loss as well as one another's process of that grief. Grief is innately personal or individual. But people grieve differently...not always or for certain, but sometimes.
I think woman is getting overly emotional and is not ready to accept the bitter reality of the death of his son than a man.
However in When I am dead, I think the poem is about a woman who is sick and is going to die. She is thinking to herself about her lover and what it will be like when she dies. She wants to be remembered but by the line where she says, "Yet if you should forget me for a while", she realises that she would rather have the person she loves forget her and be happy than grieve over her memory.Frankly,I deeply enjoy this poem because it makes me feel as if I should be more afraid of life than death...
regards,
Siti Nuha Ab Aziz
GS24085
Gopalan Said......
ReplyDeleteHello Puan Juri and Coursemates,
Actually every human being's final destination is death in their life journey.This is the phenomenon of nature and life of every living things created by God in this world.
Actually death is just like" going to sleep" and birth is just like "waking up from sleep"
So everybody has to go to bed and has to wake up. Nobody can go on sleeping forever and go on waking up forever. This is philosophy of our life.Sometimes we do escape from birth but nobody can escape from death. Since nobody wants to die God has created human beings in such way that there is no calender for death but there is calender for birth.
In this situation, Both the poem are about death and sad situation.In the poedm "Home burial" as far as children life is concern mothers are more devoted and they are willing to sacrifice any things in this world for the sake of child.But it is not true that fathers do not know how to cry and they are stone-haearted.There are husbands who cry more than the wives and wives dont't want to show any grieve for the child.All these depends on individual character and nature of fathers and mothers.Actually men are not interested in showing any grieveness , just because husband wants to look after his wife because he feels that there is nobody else in this world who can take care and look after the life and safety of his wife except himself.Because the life of the wife is very important to him so he is not showing any grieve.It is just he want to be beside her at this tragic situation.
In the poem " When I'm dead " the pesona doesnt want his relatives and loved ones to cry for him but instead be happy and send him with flowers etc. This theme is similar to the teaching of Hinduism, whereby the relatives and loved ones of the dead person, must not cry during the funeral and after the funeral.If they drop even a small ddrop of tears, you are not allowing the soul of the dead person to return to Gods home just because the dead person soul is seeing all the crying. So he cant go back and she will living in this world as ghosts and invicible person to human being.Because of this reason, the dead person is given bath with 16 types of holy waters like milk, honey, fruits, sugar cane, young coconuts, rose water etc.and new dress with flower garlands.
In conclusion, I feel that we have different ways of showing our grievances . Human being are created just in this way and we try to accept the fact that death is common among human beings and it doesn't matter who cries and who do not cry.
I just accept the themes and the intention of the both writers.
Gopalan Said......
ReplyDeleteHello Puan Juri and Coursemates,
Actually every human being's final destination is death in their life journey.This is the phenomenon of nature and life of every living things created by God in this world.
Actually death is just like" going to sleep" and birth is just like "waking up from sleep"
So everybody has to go to bed and has to wake up. Nobody can go on sleeping forever and go on waking up forever. This is philosophy of our life.Sometimes we do escape from birth but nobody can escape from death. Since nobody wants to die God has created human beings in such way that there is no calender for death but there is calender for birth.
In this situation, Both the poem are about death and sad situation.In the poedm "Home burial" as far as children life is concern mothers are more devoted and they are willing to sacrifice any things in this world for the sake of child.But it is not true that fathers do not know how to cry and they are stone-haearted.There are husbands who cry more than the wives and wives dont't want to show any grieve for the child.All these depends on individual character and nature of fathers and mothers.Actually men are not interested in showing any grieveness , just because husband wants to look after his wife because he feels that there is nobody else in this world who can take care and look after the life and safety of his wife except himself.Because the life of the wife is very important to him so he is not showing any grieve.It is just he want to be beside her at this tragic situation.
In the poem " When I'm dead " the pesona doesnt want his relatives and loved ones to cry for him but instead be happy and send him with flowers etc. This theme is similar to the teaching of Hinduism, whereby the relatives and loved ones of the dead person, must not cry during the funeral and after the funeral.If they drop even a small ddrop of tears, you are not allowing the soul of the dead person to return to Gods home just because the dead person soul is seeing all the crying. So he cant go back and she will living in this world as ghosts and invicible person to human being.Because of this reason, the dead person is given bath with 16 types of holy waters like milk, honey, fruits, sugar cane, young coconuts, rose water etc.and new dress with flower garlands.
In conclusion, I feel that we have different ways of showing our grievances . Human being are created just in this way and we try to accept the fact that death is common among human beings and it doesn't matter who cries and who do not cry.
I just accept the themes and the intention of the both writters.
Hi everyone.
ReplyDeleteThe poem on ‘When I am dead’, is actually tells to the loved ones not to cry or be distressed over a death. In fact I agreed with Mr Gopalan, that when a person dies or to be more specific, during the funeral procession/rituals, the close members of the deceased should not cry or shed tears. This is actually stopping the soul to attain (moksa/nirvana) or to reach GOD. I think all other religions too have the similar concept of dead, crying, mourning and grieving. As I mentioned earlier that, not everyone grieves and mourns or expresses sadness the same way, but grieve over something that cannot be undone...is actually worthless.
SHAMMINE
GS24384
hye everyone..
ReplyDeletewhen i am dead and home burial both showed grieving..in when i am dead poem it is about how she doesn't want anyone to feel sad, crying,and mourning for her death and she wants people that she loves to be happy always and to have a better life and continue their life as usual and she hopes that even she was not there people will still missing her on her good did and still have sweet memories when she was alive. But for the second poem about home burial is actually to show the grieve of a parents and a different way how people shows their grieving. some would rather shows their emotions especially woman and some would just keep it in heart and tend to hide it from others.Frankly i admit that i cant afford to not to cry if someone that i loved so much passed away..it is to released the inner feeling of mourning and i cant keep it by my self. i need someone to coax me and give as much support to me and there goes the important of man that can actually help in this case..but for me for home burial i think i agree with earlier posted comment that they have marriage problem prior to the child death and actually the wife was still in her anger and she cannot understand how her husband feeling about the death. she assumes that because of her husband can actually buried the child by himself that gives meaning to the wife that the husband do not care on what had happened but the intention of the husband is to show to the wife that he is grieving and try to be supportive and to help their marriage for not to fall apart.here i also agree with gopalan and shammine that grieve over something that cannot be undone is actually worthless..for me,it is okay for us to cry as a grieving but then we have to accept that they have gone and we have to continue our life and i think all religion believe that it will chastise the one who has passed away down there if we still sad, mourning and crying continuously and overly.
NORASHIKIN MOKHTAR
GS25973
Hai Madam Juridah and friends,
ReplyDeleteAccording to me `When I am dead` is about how one does not care how things turn out after life is over. What is important is that we live our lives so we can be remembered. When the poet says-" If thy wilt remember, if thy wilt forget" she is referring to the choice people have when they are alive to do something to be remembered for or be someone who people would rather forget. Its a comforting thought to be one with nature after death. How does it matter if you put flowers on the grave or grow a tree? After life there is nothing but peace. That is how I interpret this poem.
However, in “Home Burial” the true nature of the conflict between the husband and wife can be discerned only through their actions and their relation to the setting. Frost uses the window, the staircase, and the door to convey that the wife must leave the relationship and the house, not because of her husband’s insensitivity or inability to speak well, but because of the fear her connection with the dead child causes her. Frost deceives the reader through dialogue because the characters are similarly deceived. Both the husband and wife believe the problem is in speaking to one another, something that can be remedied. However, by examining their actions and the setting, we find that the death of the child will inevitably lead to the end of their relationship, that path that is ahead of the wife. Their home was doomed by the child’s death, and so the death represented not just the death of the child, but also the burial of the home.
That`s all and thank you.
Margaret Anthoney
GS26688